What the Bible Says About Apostates Like Me

There is an irreconcilable conflict between Jesus and Paul and Peter when it comes to how to view apostates that were once followers of Jesus

Progressive, liberal, kind-hearted Christians stress the two great laws emphasized by Jesus in Mark 12:28-33:

And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.

Love God and love your fellow man. All the laws of the Bible are summed up in these two commands, Love God and love your fellow man. If Christians truly embraced these two commands I suspect I would have very little to write about on this blog.

Sadly most CHRISTians live in denial of the teachings of Christ. They are ensconced in the teaching of Paul and Peter, and they most often live lives in total denial of the teachings of the man they claim is their Lord and Savior.

This is clearly shown by their response to people like me. For some reason, an evangelical pastor turned atheist is such a threat to the Christian faith of some that I must be attacked and ridiculed at every opportunity. So sharp are their attacks that I had to implement comment moderation and limit abusive commenters to one comment. (my thinking is they get one chance to tell me what an awful man I am so they better make it count, kind of like an enema)  Angry smile

Where does this need to attack and ridicule come from? Is it just a reflection of their lack of civility, maturity or a lack of character? I am sure this explains some of their behavior but I think they really do believe the Bible gives them  warrant to say the things they say.

What does the Bible say?

Peter writes in 2 Peter 2:1-22:

But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;) The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord. But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man’s voice forbad the madness of the prophet. These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever. For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

How does Peter describe people like me?

  • A false teacher who brings upon himself  swift destruction
  • A person who, with his words, manipulates people for material gain
  • A person who deserves the judgment and damnation of God
  • A person who is like the people God killed in the flood, the people God killed with fire and brimstone at Sodom and Gomorrah, and like the  rebellious angels God  cast out of heaven
  • Like a dog who eats its own vomit
  • Like a sow wallowing in the mud
  • Like Balaam

Let’s face it Peter describes people like me in such a way that many Christians conclude we are worthy of all the derision we receive.

Paul writes in 2 Timothy 3:1-10

This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their’s also was.

Paul paints a lurid picture of apostates like me. Paul says my “folly” will be made manifest to all men and many Christians feel they have the gift of manifestation. Devil

Paul writes in Romans 1:16-32:

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

People like me are described as those who hold the truth in unrighteousness. We worship the creation rather than the creator. We refuse to acknowledge God and we give him no worship or thanks. Our foolish hearts are darkened and we are vain in our imaginations. Result? God gives us over to a reprobate mind.

According to the Bible I am a reprobate, a person beyond the grace of God., a person who has already secured a berth in hell.

In Hebrews 6:4-6 and Hebrews 10:26-29 Paul makes it clear that people like me have no hope of God ever extending grace to us again:

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, f they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

apostasy_exitThese verses make it clear that apostates like me have no second chance. We have spit in the face of God, we have trampled under our feet the blood of Jesus, and we have spited the spirit of grace.  We are enemies of God.

According to the Bible, since I am a unregenerate, unsaved person I have a deceitful, wicked heart. I am incapable of doing good and I am unable to love in the truest sense of the word. (because true love comes from God)

I make no bones about my beliefs. I don’t believe there is a god. I don’t believe that Jesus was God nor do I believe he died on the cross for my sins and resurrected from the dead three days later. I totally reject the Christians concept of original sin. I also reject any notion that suggests the Bible is a divine book written by God, a book that every human being is obligated to obey. I am an atheist.

At one time I believed the Bible was the inspired, inerrant Word of God. I believed that there was one God  and that Jesus, the son of God, died on the cross for my sins and rose from the dead  three days later, thus vanquishing sin and death. I believed that Jesus was the way, truth, and life. As Paul said of himself, I at one time said of myself, I KNOW in whom I have believed…At one time, according to the book of 1 John, I had a know-so salvation.

Christian people who meet me, interact with me on Facebook, or trade emails with me are often faced with a dilemma. I am a nice guy who is kind and compassionate most of the time. I love my family and I love my neighbors. My “good” works stack up quite favorably with many of the super-saints that come to this blog to tell me what their God thinks of me.  Ask the people who know me about my life and character. I have no doubt the report will be favorable.  (I am not perfect to be sure but I am a better Christian than many of the Christians I know)

But, the Bible says……….. I know some Christians want to see me in a good light, but doing so puts them in direct conflict with the Bible. Paul and Peter are not ambiguous on the matter. What’s it going to be?

I fully understand why some Christians believe that I am a deadly enemy, an enemy they are commanded to wage war against. (Ephesians 6) Thousands of people read this blog and, in the minds of the warring faithful, I am an enemy of their eternal souls. They feel obligated to speak up for God, Jesus, the Bible, and the Christian faith. They feel they will be rewarded by God for standing up for the faith once delivered to the saints. Well done thou good and faith Servant. Enter in……

Some Christians attempt to navigate a third way when dealing with people like me. They think I was hurt by the Church and that my apostasy is an emotional response to the hateful, nasty, mean-spiritedness that is all too common in Evangelical Christianity. In their minds I am still a Christian, one that has been wounded by the Church.

I  readily admit there is an emotional component to my defection from Christianity. However, it is not the primary reason. The issue is, and remains so, that I do not believe the Bible is truth and I do not have the requisite faith to believe. I am the enemy of God.

I am quite happy when a liberal minded, progressive Christian sincerely attempts to  love me as their neighbor but I do understand WHY many Christians respond differently. The Bible is on their side. The liberal minded, progressive Christian has love, compassion, civility, and decency on their side. They are good people. But, if life is all about preparing to meet God, if it is allow about preparing for eternity, if it is all about keeping the commandments of God, then the Bible believers who eviscerate me and attempt to sodomize me with the words of the Bible clearly have God on their side.

Related posts:

  1. No Bible No Christianity. Why Do Many Christians Distance Themselves From the Bible?
  2. You, Me and The Bible
  3. Bible Gymnastics
  4. Who Determines What the Bible Says?
  5. What Do Christians Really Believe About God, Jesus, and the Bible
  • Delicious Oil

    You are not the enemy of God, you are a victim in the war.

    What occurs to me is one of two things: Either your faith never was legitimate in the first place, you played thereligious game instead of a real relationship, or as you say, you have fallen. The problem, of course, is that you are the only one who can tell (besides God) if your faith was real, and you would only know if you had experienced the real deal. So- I will hope there's hope and pray!

    Also- Peter & Paul never said anything about abusing such people. We are called to love, and in the end I am no better than you on my own. We are both all those things described above, only my debt has been paid.

    If that didn't make sense, sorry. It does in my head, at least.

    • http://fallenfromgrace.net Bruce Gerencser

      My faith was real.

      and now it is not.

      Bruce

  • Tina Marie

    Thanks for laying it out so well Bruce. I'm now clear on why the most religious of my relatives no longer speak to me. Not that I'm missing anything mind you! I was told to read Revelations and get back to them. When I said that Revelations read like a man on hallucinogenic drugs I was blocked (emails) and shunned. I've always suspected the bible gave them permission to treat me in this way but did not know what verses supported this feeling I had. Now I understand! Thanks.

    • Anonymous

      Tina Marie?!?!?!?!  Have you risen from the dead?!?!?!?!  If you have truly risen from the dead, can you sing for us, "Lovergirl"?  I can't get the lyrics out of my head! "I just want to be your lovergirl!"  

      Hallelujah!!!  SHE is risen!!! Praise Jebus!  However, being the doubting Mikail that I am, I will not believe until I hear and see you sing "lovergirl."  

  • Anonymous

    Sorry for the double post. I tried to erase one of them, but it wouldn't let me. The reason I made a double post is because I wanted the post to be a reply to big K, but I accidentally put it at the top of the comments section. Bruce, feel free to erase one of them. 

  • Janet

    But you were a Baptist! Surely you know, then, once saved, always saved. When my own son became an apostate years before I did, a kind Baptist lady assured me of this. So… you were never really saved, huh?

    • Kristen

      That's what I'm banking on :) Saved many times over the course of 20 years….just to make sure, ya know?

  • Cole

    Hey Bruce,

    I guess I should have said the Bible. I hate the Bible. My judgment is clear. I just can't accept some of the things in there like the sacrificing of animals or the human sacrifice of Christ to cover the sins of people. The God revealed there is just too barbaric for me.

    • http://fallenfromgrace.net Bruce Gerencser

      Got it. I too have spells where I hate how the Bible is used to

      manipulate, control, and hurt people.The ultimate reason I left

      Christianity is the Bible. Like you I could no longer embrace what it

      taught. I especially had a hard time reconciling the God of the OT

      with the God of the NT. (until I realized that the Bible presents many

      Gods to be worshiped, not just one)

      I no longer read the Bible unless I need to for a post. 40 plus years

      of reading it most every day, and 25 plus years of intensely studying

      it is enough for me.

      Bruce

  • Anonymous

    Oh, and Big K, while preaching your particular Christian gospel, has it ever occurred to you that we've heard that same shit before for several years?  Do you really think we need to be reminded of the evangelical/fundamentalist Christian Gospel?  Haven't you figured out that most of us on here are recovering evangelical/fundamentalist Christians? I know I probably sound like an asshole, but I find your condescension to be very insulting. 

  • the big K

    I can sympathize with your claims that some Christians are really quite off their rocker trying to shove down the religion by your throat.  But I have studied Christianity for a while now and I have to say that according to Christianity (real, true Bible-based Christianity), everyone possesses the human nature to turn away from God.  We all have committed wrongs, thus deeming us imperfect to enter this "kingdom of heaven".  The difference between Christianity and other religions is that other religions rely on self-effort to achieve a state of being:  Meditation to Nirvana, Karma to Brahman, etc.  But Christianity offers a radical, unique point of view by saying that the only way to heaven  by accepting the free gift of heaven from a loving and caring God rather than by self-effort.  

    So yes you are undeserving of heaven, as stated in Paul's letters.  But then you must realize that we are all undeserving of heaven, and we all deserved to be damned.  But this is where God reaches out, where all we have to do to accept him with humility, by saying that "I'm not good enough for you.  But you can forgive my bad deeds, and cleanse me so that I may be good enough.  I can't."  It is this kind of thinking that allowed me to sympathize with Christians more so than atheists.  There is a lot more hope in Christianity for the poor, the sick, and the weary who are in need for this kind of message.

    • http://fallenfromgrace.net Bruce Gerencser

      So what you are saying is you have the real, deal Christianity and many other people who say they are Christians don't?

      Yes, salvation is by grace, though faith, and not ourselves lest any man should boast. That's the offical party line, however everything I have seen over my lifettime tells me that Christianity is just as works-based as any other religion. I nfact, a strong case could be made that the Bible implicitly teaches works-based salvation. Like in the book of James. Oh course, I know you might be tempted to give me the correct "interpretation" of James, please don't. :) I am convinced that James and Paul teach two different kinds of Christianity, and that Peter's Christianity was far more like James's than Paul's.

      Thanks for commenting.

      Bruce

    • Anonymous

      Big K, your faulty pre-suppositions are so numerous, I don't know where to start. 

    • Anonymous

      Oh, and Big K, while preaching your particular Christian gospel, has it ever occurred to you that we’ve heard that same shit before for several years?  Do you really think we need to be reminded of the evangelical/fundamentalist Christian Gospel?  Haven’t you figured out that most of us on here are recovering evangelical/fundamentalist Christians? I know I probably sound like an asshole, but I find your condescension to be very insulting. 

  • Randall Morrison90

    Bruce, I disagree with you but I do not think you should be ridiculed or attacked.

    But I am no clear on what you mean by that.  I think you are wrong, and I think that on balance what you are doing will harm people in the end,  but do you equate that with ridicule and attack?

    If you do, does that mean you think those who disagree should remain silent, or simply ignore you and not comment on your blog?

    This is a sincere question, and if you want me to just go away I respect your wishes and rights in that regard, and that would be consistent with how Jesus said to respond to those who did not want to hear him.   I am a seminary student, and I think the New Atheist wave may be the trend of the future, so I would like to understand better how to deal with this, because I think Christianity is going to suffer serious attack if the New Atheists get control.

    • http://fallenfromgrace.net Bruce Gerencser

      You ask a fair question here. What do I mean by ridicule and attack?

      Here's what I don't mean? Honest, open interaction with what I write. Honest, open disagreement with what I write. When I write something and allow others to comment I am asking for their opinion about what I wrote. I am asking for them to agree, disagree, sharpen the places I am weak and smooth over the places where I am strong. I always encourage interaction with my writing. I am narcissistic enough to want it. :) (as most writers are)

      Ridicule and attack happens when they come after me personally. They refuse to allow me to tall my own story. Some long time readers might remember the "Iggy incident" on this blog a year or so ago. Iggy was a guy I met on the internet while I was still a pastor.He became very upset at my apostasy and decided to argue me back into the faith. He was nasty, bombastic, and arrogant. He told me that he knew "me" better than I knew myself. It is one of the few times where I lost my temper and responded in a nasty manner.

      It is my story, my life and I have the right to tell it. Attack and ridicule also comes when people go to great lengths to tell me I was never a Christian, or they go so far as to say that I am not who I say I am. Once again, they are trying to control the story line.

      Attack and ridicule come when a commenter doesn't like my interpretation of the Bible and they take it upon themselves to tell me how ignorant I am. Never mind how many years I spent studying the Bible, preaching the Bible, etc. My interpretation differs fro theirs do I an wrong, ignorant, stupid, etc.

      Attack and ridicule comes when commenters preach at me rather than interact with me. it seems a lot of Christians just can't resist the temptation to be sanctified, arrogant, self-righteous sons-of-bitches. :) Even when told to stop they take it upon themselves to keep preaching until I refuse to post any more of their drivel. Commenters like this aren't looking to understand my viewpoint or interact in any meaningful way. They have an agenda, they have a message, and they are going to preach it.

      That is why I limit Christian commenters like those mentioned to one comment. Get it out, say it all, good bye. I am learning not to engage them because it is a colossal waste of time.

      Your tone and attempt to honestly interact act is appreciated. Very few Christian commenters seem to be able to do so. (for more than one comment any way)

      Bruce

    • Anonymous

      Randall, it seems to me that you totally misunderstood Bruce's blog post.  The main point of his blog post is not that Christians should shut up and not voice opinions different than those of Bruce.  The point of his post was that Christians who treat apostates, such as Bruce, myself, and other commenters on here, like shit are only following the Bible's orders.  

  • Cole

    I don't hate all Christians. I hate evangelical Christianity. Just as some preachers tell us to hate sin but love the sinner. I see it as a healthy hatred. Evangelical Christianity must die. If that causes you to hate or dislike me then I hate or dislike you. 

    • Randall Morrison90

      Cole, I am not sure hatred can ever be healthy for human beings.  For one thing, hatred almost inevitably distorts judgment.

    • http://fallenfromgrace.net Bruce Gerencser

      I may not agree with your sentiment but I do agree that Evangelical Christianity, at least in the Western world, is the bigger problem due to their melding of Christian doctrine with nationalism and politics. I would add fudametalist Catholics as a a part of the problem too.

      If Christianity was a personal. pietistic faith that recognized America is a secular, pluralistic state all would be well, however that is not the case, so the battle continues.

      Thanks for commenting.

  • Anonymous

    ”…after all, look at the
    atheists blogs, say John Loftus for example, and you find repeated
    almost unending attack and ridicule.I mean, you do realize
    atheists are heavy on that don't you?”

    Have you ever wondered why atheists
    'are heavy on that', Juno?

    Quoting Bible verses to an atheist have
    about the same effect as some tribal shaman quoting his juju at you.
    Your holy book is supposed to show us the way to better living, but
    in fact it mostly tells us that this life is merely a dry run for the
    next life; thereby cheapening this life, and everyone and everything
    in it.

    “Anyway, I wish you the best, but you
    are obviously very angry at G0d…a God you don't believe in.”

    That would make our host an angry
    theist, not an angry atheist. According to your logic, Bruce
    should be equally angry at Captain Hook!

    I remember getting really angry when
    Darth Vader cut off Luke's hand…but half an hour later I walked out
    of the theater and forgot about it. Guess why.

  • JunoMIlgram

    Bruce, just because you see yourself as kind and compassionate, etc. does not mean you really are.  I mean, look at your post…its not exactly full of love.

    As to where the need to attack and ridicucle come from?  Well, I think that is common of people…after all, look at the atheists blogs, say John Loftus for example, and you find repeated almost unending attack and ridicule.

    I mean, you do realize atheists are heavy on that don't you?

    Anyway, I wish you the best, but you are obviously very angry at G0d…a God you don't believe in.  Something does not quite add up.

    • http://fallenfromgrace.net Bruce Gerencser

      well you can either believe me when I say I am not angry or continue to believe you know me better than I know myself.

      This post is about what the bible says about people like me. how about interacting with what I wrote and leave it to Dr Phil to make inane judgments about people he doesn't know.

      Loftus is my friend. I have read his blog for 3 years. his posts are not filled with anger or ridicule. those things show up in the comments when atheists react to Christians who preach, quote Bible verses, make judgments about a person's past relationship with God, and generally trot out the same, old worn out apologetical ploys that atheists have heard for years.

      If i am angry at anyone it is Christians, who in the name of their God feel they have a god-given right to back their honey wagon up to my doorstep and unload its content. that's why Christians only get one chance to comment on this blog. one chance to tell me whatever god has laid on their hearts.

      perhaps you should ask yourself why you bother to comment on blogs like mine and Loftus's? we are not a threat to your all powerful God. stop casting your pearls before swine. let us angrily march on to hell. what can you tell me that I haven't heard before? (that is a rhetorical question)

      • JunoMIlgram

        I'm sorry, Bruce, but that is a pretty angry response.  Anger doesn't hurt anyone but the person who is angry.

        And you don't need to post what I said, and I am not offended if you ignore me, but for your own sake let the anger go.

        As to Loftus…well, we will just have to agree to disagree, since he used ridicule extensively.  I mean, heck, he calls Christians names all the time and even uses the word "Delusion" in one of his book titles.

        But seriously, all the best.

        • http://fallenfromgrace.net Bruce Gerencser

          no, I will approve your comment. in other words you have some special gift that allows you to discern emotions just by reading a person's blog comment.

          I will tell you once a again, I am not angry. i am sitting in my recliner, the ballgame is on the TV, my wife is sitting next to me,three of my children are sitting on the couch, and I am answering your comment on my iPad. I just ate dinner. Tomorrow all my kids and grandkids will be here. so angry? not a chance.

          you had you opportunity to comment. I hope you said all you needed to say.

          • JunoMIlgram

            Sorry if I offended you, Bruce.  You certainly have a point about reading emotions from a blog, but you did say you were angry at Christians.  If that is not really the case, thats great, because that would harm only you.

            And you are a blessed man to have your family with you. 

            All the best.

            So long.

        • Dark Star

          Oh, JunoMIlgram – it is your posts which sound angry and you sound hurt and fearful.  I think your emotions are coming from that place.  You have held this one ball of beliefs up as the sole truth your entire life and now someone has pierced that ball and the air is being let out.  That hurts.

          It's a slow realization of how many times you have been lied to your face with a smile.  It hurts.

          It reminds us of how vulnerable we were as children when these ideas were inculcated without our informed consent.  Had you been raised in India you would laugh at the Bible and give praise to Krishna and would probably be a devote of a Sai Baba – can you imagine?  GOD made flesh, right before your very eyes, in a sea of millions of devotes, performing a miracle just for you?   Must be very powerful for them indeed.  But still, when we wake up from the dream of childhood they are nothing but shadows in our minds.

          But you should let it go.  Let go of your anger.  Let go of your fear.  They are causing you to strike out against Bruce and John but the one you are most harming is yourself.

          I'm not angry at those who tried to indoctrinate me as a child, it was all they knew and they ultimately acted out of love.

          But I learned a tiny little secret, you can free your mind by daring to disbelieve.

    • Anonymous

      Juno, in your post on the war thread, you made a valid point, and I even agreed with it.  But after reading your post on this thread, I really wonder what your point in posting here really is?  Are you not aware of the Bruce' rules that he has the right to make and enforce?  From your last post, you are exhibiting the Freud-like behavior that is all too typical of Christians towards apostates.  

      As Bruce said, interact with what he writes.  The attempt to be Freud only makes you look like a self-rigtheous asshole. 

    • Anonymous

      "Bruce, just because you see yourself as kind and compassionate, etc. does not mean you really are.  I mean, look at your post…its not exactly full of love."
      Just where is this lack of compassion and kindness of which you speak? Could it be that you are mistaking criticism of your cherished religious beliefs for lack of compassion and kindness?

      A lot of you Christians can sure dish it out, but you have trouble taking it. Just sayin',

    • April Galamin

      Juno, you wrote "…after all, look at the atheists blogs, say John Loftus for example,
      and you find repeated almost unending attack and ridicule. I mean, you do realize atheists are heavy on that don't you?"

      Look around Juno, lots of fundy "true believers" are "heavy on that"  (attack & ridicule).
      True believers are supposed to be emulating the "prince of peace"….well…who really came to send a sword of division…(but that's another topic).   For a religion that puts themselves as embodying the ideals of love & forgiveness, there is a hell of a lot of hatred, strife & war that is perpetuated through their supposed "true religion" churchianity.

  • Nos Ni

    Hi Bruce,
    You're absolutely right.  There is a strong thread of hatred that runs through Christianity.  It is nothing more than that natural tendency of human beings to align themselves with their own tribe and to spurn those outside of it. So much for the regenerated mind when it can't rise above such a basic animal instinct. 
    Incidentally, you credit the letters of Peter to the apostle of that name, but they were certainly not written by him, as you probably know.  Rather, as Bart Ehrman puts it , they are forgeries.  Similarly, Paul did not write Hebrews (though in fairness it doesn't claim he did) – it was a different zealot who came up with that one.  Forgeries and fantasies: they're all part of God's wonderful Word!
    Neil

    • http://fallenfromgrace.net Bruce Gerencser

      I know about the authorship issues. For sake of argument and

      simplicity I use the names of the writers historically considered the

      authors. I am in total agreement with Ehrman on the authorship issues.

      It is easier to write Paul said in Hebrews rather An unidentified man

      of questionable motives said_________. :)

      Thanks for commenting.

      Bruce

  • April Galamin

     Bruce wrote, "Love God and love your fellow man. All the laws of the Bible are summed
    up in these two commands, Love God and love your fellow man. If
    Christians truly embraced these two commands I suspect I would have very
    little to write about on this blog." 
     BINGO!!  Yes Bruce, so true.

    If christianity were this, I'd probably still be in the club, but it's not about "love".
    It's about the politics of religion & what group is doing the "true religion"….
    It's about the ifb rulebook you have wrote about,
    It's about "Us & Them"…
    It's about believing in an archaic & primitive book, & NOT a benevolent deity.
    It's about tossing human reason out the window & conforming to mindless dogma 

    I believed sincerely in the god of grace & love….
    but the religion of the god of "grace" was not about love or grace.
    It was a sham & a cruel  hoax.
    Sorry I had to add this because really, I was about the love & goodness stuff, but found the religion to
    be sooooo opposite of the supposed love that was preached on from time to time & was
    used to suck me into the abusive religious cult.

  • April Galamin

    When I left the bible cult, the pastor hurled hurtful & I might add slanderous words about us from his bully pulpit…yet I was very much still a full fledged "true believer", in Jesus, God & the bible.
     
    We were shunned & the leader told the flock not to befriend us, but to let us know we were being disobedient….all this, not because we were unbelievers, but because we left his group!  I did disagree with much of the leader's doctrinal rants, that initially I accepted as 'gospel truth'.  But over time, I had begun to question & think for myself & truly this was NOT tolerated.  I had royally pissed off the 'man of gawd' but I still believed the "christian" basics.  To be treated so cruelly…after all we had been through (uprooting our lives for the cult & laying down our lives for the brethren, who really didn't give two shits about us) this & the actions/non actions of the believers, is what precipitated my tearing down the whole belief system & seeing if there was any truth or justice to it.  
    I weighed it in the balance & the dogma was found wanting.  

    Bible -primitive baptist- calvinist religion was hell on earth.
    It's a mind numbing cult that hurts & damages people, but benefits the leader/s.

  • Anonymous

    Bruce, I can totally relate to you.  As I've said before, I've been fortunate enough to maintain friendships with several Christian friends despite my apostasy.  However, I have told a few of these nice Christians that that they are nicer to me than their "Holy Book" tells them to be towards people like me.  Although these people would never admit it, they are putting their sense of human decency above what the Bible says, and I think this is a good thing. 

    • http://fallenfromgrace.net Bruce Gerencser

      Correct ,many Christians are far better than their God. I have a few Christian friends who are able to think beyond the bible in their relationship with me. I appreciate them for doing so.

      • MichaelL65

        Bruce, April and Mikail2:
        You have all hit the nail on the head. I too was a Bible believing, Evangelical pastor/teacher that has left the faith. I too am in the Apostate Club, and, I might add, proudly so!  I have lost friends and kids over my decision, but I simply cannot go back to a belief system that is more like a prison that the promised freedom in Christ.  What I learned is that 'freedom in Christ' meant following the crowd. Believing like everyone else in the club, acting like them, and, in my early yyears as a Christian, dressing like them.  There is no freedom of thought in the cult of Christianity. You must think the way everyone else thinks, and any deviation from that norm willl bring correction and rebuke.  If there is a heaven and hell, I think people will be very surprised at who the inhabitants of both places will be.

        • Anonymous

          Michael, you got a great name! LOL!  I have the same name, but I like the arabic version of our name too, and that is what I go by here in cyber world. 

          Thanks to your post here, I just discovered your blog and look forward to reading it. You, too, are a former evangelical pastor?  I'm sure that like Bruce, you have a fascinating story.  You say you lost not only friends, but your kids over your deconversion?  I'm really sorry to hear that.  

          I look forward to reading more of your blog.

        • April Galamin

          Hi Michael,

          Yes!  They talk about the freedom in christ, but it's not real freedom.
          My xpastor ranted from his bully pulpit,
          "some folks might feel that this church is like a prison, I will remind you
           that Paul said "I am a prisoner for Christ!!!"
          So much for the "freedom that is in christ" & how the "truth" will set you free…. (:/
          There is so ~ so  much doublespeak! 
          A lot of crazymaking going on….that was my experience in the cult anyhow.