Is God to Blame for Weather that Kills People?

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weatherIf you are a Christian and you believe the Bible is truth then the answer is an emphatic YES. The people recently killed by tornadoes? God’s doing. The people killed by Hurricane Katrina? God’s doing.

The Bible is clear:

And the LORD turned a mighty strong west wind, which took away the locusts, and cast them into the Red sea; there remained not one locust in all the coasts of Egypt. Exodus 10:19

And there went forth a wind from the LORD, and brought quails from the sea, and let them fall by the camp, as it were a day’s journey on this side, and as it were a day’s journey on the other side, round about the camp, and as it were two cubits high upon the face of the earth. Numbers 11:31

For he looketh to the ends of the earth, and seeth under the whole heaven; To make the weight for the winds; and he weigheth the waters by measure. When he made a decree for the rain, and a way for the lightning of the thunder: Job 28:24-26

But the LORD sent out a great wind into the sea, and there was a mighty tempest in the sea, so that the ship was like to be broken. Jonah 1:4

But God prepared a worm when the morning rose the next day, and it smote the gourd that it withered. And it came to pass, when the sun did arise, that God prepared a vehement east wind; and the sun beat upon the head of Jonah, that he fainted, and wished in himself to die, and said, It is better for me to die than to live.  Jonah 4:7,8

He caused an east wind to blow in the heaven: and by his power he brought in the south wind.  Psalm 78:26

These see the works of the LORD, and his wonders in the deep. For he commandeth, and raiseth the stormy wind, which lifteth up the waves thereof.  Psalm 107:24,25

He causeth the vapours to ascend from the ends of the earth; he maketh lightnings for the rain; he bringeth the wind out of his treasuries. Psalm 135:7

And his disciples came to him, and awoke him, saying, Lord, save us: we perish. And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm. But the men marveled, saying, What manner of man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey him! Matthew 8:25-27

Behold, to morrow about this time I will cause it to rain a very grievous hail, such as hath not been in Egypt since the foundation thereof even until now. Exodus 9:18

And Moses stretched forth his rod toward heaven: and the LORD sent thunder and hail, and the fire ran along upon the ground; and the LORD rained hail upon the land of Egypt. Exodus 9:22

Thou shalt be visited of the LORD of hosts with thunder, and with earthquake, and great noise, with storm and tempest, and the flame of devouring fire. Isaiah 29:6

And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.Genesis 6:17

Thou didst cleave the fountain and the flood: thou driedst up mighty rivers. The day is thine, the night also is thine: thou hast prepared the light and the sun. Psalm 74:16

For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; 2 Peter 2:4-6

For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth. Genesis 7:4

And it shall come to pass, if ye shall hearken diligently unto my commandments which I command you this day, to love the LORD your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul, That I will give you the rain of your land in his due season, the first rain and the latter rain, that thou mayest gather in thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil. And I will send grass in thy fields for thy cattle, that thou mayest eat and be full. Deuteronomy 11:13-15

That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. Matthew 5:45

For he saith to the snow, Be thou on the earth; likewise to the small rain, and to the great rain of his strength.  Job 37:6

There is no doubt about who is in control of the weather. The Bible makes it clear that God controls the weather. ( and everything else for that matter)  If God controls the weather then HE is responsible for the devastation and death that comes when bad weather comes our way.

Not happenstance.

Not Mother Nature.

God.

Dear Christian friend, the next time you are bitching about the weather please turn your bitching towards your God. He is the one to blame.

A recent Christian commenter left this gem:

The thing is you want a God in your own image. You are justifying yourself and bringing him down to a human level. Complain, mock all you want. Like a crybaby. He is God and is right and as God can make the rules, not you. He is truth, whether you like it or not. The creator has the right to impose what he deems correct on His creation according to His standards. I am sorry for whatever has brought you to the point that you have set yourself against Him so, but it is just pitiful that in the end you are going to find out that the reason He does what he does is for your good and final happiness also, not because He is a tyrant like you think. But you will have missed out, because all you think of is “poor me.”

According to the Bible this commenter is correct. Basically, God is God and he can do whatever he wants to do. How dare any pimple on the ass of God human beings say anything about what God does.

Evidently doing what HE wants includes using a tsunami and earthquake to kill thousands in Japan, killing thousands more with a Hurricane named Katrina, and killing hundreds of southerners with tornadoes.

Every day, somewhere in the world, the Christian God is using his control of the weather to bring devastation and death.

Who are we to complain?

Related posts:

  1. It’s God’s Fault Blame Him
  2. Do People Change?
  3. Christian Parents Accused of Child Abuse. Is the Bible to Blame?
  4. Churches That Abuse, Why Good People Do Bad Things and Why Bad People Do Bad Things Part 2
  5. Churches That Abuse, Why Good People Do Bad Things and Why Bad People Do Bad Things Part 3
  • http://fallenfromgrace.net Bruce Gerencser

    Regardless of your take on the verses I quoted you admit that God is Sovereign and that means he controls everything. He who created and controls is accountable.

    The purpose of quoting the verses is to give ample evidence that God, to some degree or another, controls the weather. While there are people specific verses most of the verses speak of God controlling the weather in general.(and I could have quoted many more verses)

    Bruce

  • Appalachian Agnostic

    The hostile responses to this post are surprising to me. To illustrate one particular Christian belief, you asked a question, then quoted a bunch of Bible verses that pointed to a particular answer to that question. I sat through a lot of sermons when I was younger, and if I remember correctly, this is exactly what preachers do. They list a bunch of Bible verses which support one idea or another.

    Apparently, this technique is only allowed if you actually believe what the Bible says is true. Apparently, we are not allowed to even think, "Oh my God, GOD sounds like an asshole in some of these verses! Could that be true? Could God be that cruel?"

    I know of a few people I might call Godly. They are playground bullies, abusive husbands, sociopaths, corrupt leaders and users of all sorts. Basically, anyone who runs over others because they can get away with it.

    • http://fallenfromgrace.net Bruce Gerencser

      The one thing I noticed is that no one bothered to actually engage me

      on an exegetical basis. They objected to my conclusions. I see the

      same thing with Bart Ehrman.(and I am not a Bart Ehrman) His critics

      rarely object to the data he presents. They object to his conclusions.

      It is almost like………they know what it SAYS but no one is

      allowed to say out loud what the obvious conclusion is.

      • Shinbrouken

        That's because exegetically speaking, you ARE correct in concluding that the Bible says God CAN control the weather. :-)

        I don't think any Bible-reading Christian will disagree with you on that score.

        I think the "hostile" responses are addressed to your generalization that God is the lone cause for human misery arising from weather-related disasters.

        Humans DO cause each other misery through abuse of nature.

        Now is it right to conclude that God, being the maker of humans like the Bible says He is, is ultimately responsible for the misery humans cause each other? That if he hadn't made humans, then there wouldn't be any human suffering?

        A drug addict who murders his girlfriend pleads in court: "I would not have killed her if it weren't because of the drugs I took. Its the fault of the drug manufacturers! Its also the fault of the gunsmith who made the gun I used to kill my girlfriend! He's the one to blame! If he hadn't made the gun, I wouldn't have been able to shoot her! And don't forget God! He made me who I am! He's ultimately the one to blame for my girlfriend's death! How come HE's not on trial?"

        (The funny and sad thing is that this kind of reasoning actually DOES happen in legal proceedings.)

        The Bible doesn't say that God made the weather for the explicit purpose of killing people with. And God certainly did NOT make humans for the explicit purpose of causing misery for each other. As I understand the Bible, its quite the opposite.

        A disclaimer: I'm not trying to defend those who are rude in the way they responded to your post Bruce. They're accountable for their own actions, as we all are. Christian or not, an asshole is an asshole. :-)

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  • http://deconstructingmyselfdma.blogspot.com/ D'Ma

    "a woman was talking loudly on the phone about how god directed the tornadoes away from her. Personally her. "

    And did this woman whom god protected in such a divine way share any thoughts or concerns as to what happened to those in the new found path of destruction? When god was protecting her he was destroying someone else. Did that even occur to her? I doubt it. Jeez, how considerate of god. I'm sure he's got huge plans for her life.

  • Anonymous

    I'm a "Calvin" Calvinist not a TULIP Calvinist. I have concluded that the vast majority are predestined for Heaven, even Bruce.)

    I have lived in the Seattle metro area for 50 years and when the BIG earthquake comes there will not be a building left standing. When it happens remind me not to complain. But if I lived in Tornado Alley I would have a house that was half underground with safe bedrooms. I think it could be reasonably and comfortably done. The earthquake may not come for 100 years but the tornados come every year.

    In Japan there are historical tsunami limit markers about which is taught in public school yet housing is built between the markers and the waterline. You pays your money and makes your choice.

    Is the death of 10,000 people more tragic than the death of 10 people? If so, why? "No man is an island."

    • http://fallenfromgrace.net Bruce Gerencser

      Thanks Bill. :)

      A wise man builds his house where it will be safe and secure. It seems money and insurance allows people to ignore this. They build houses where they shouldn't and then are shocked when calamity comes.

  • Gray

    Bruce is deleting comments…

  • Gray

    …

  • A Lee

    You may have left Christianity but you have not left the narrow, black and white fundamentalist mindset. You have decided what you think is true about the Bible and set out to find verses that prove your thinking. It is called proof texting. Do you honestly think that the Bible teaches a God up in the sky just sitting around and sending a tornado here, a tsumani there, a hurricane somewhere else? Give me a break, I may believe in the literal interpretation of the Bible and a sovereign God but I also believe in a God who has given us enough common sense to correctly interpret/read scripture and expects us to think using logic when we are reading it.

    If you choose to be an atheist thats your choice and your business but at least be honest in what you claim the Bible teaches and don’t misquote and read into it what you want it to say to make a point.

    • http://fallenfromgrace.net Bruce Gerencser

      The Bible says what it says. Don't tell me what your opinion of God is because it is irrelevant. Christianity is built on the foundation of the Bible. Christians are bound to what the Bible teaches.

      Let's see…..has God ever done anything that would show us his killing humans with weather character? Why yes he has. He drowned millions of men, women, boys, girls, and unborn fetuses in the flood.

      Either God is the first cause or he is not. If he is then no weather event happens apart from God.

      Pray tell….why do Christians pray be spared when a tornado, flood or hurricane is imminent? Why pray to God if he has no control over the weather. Better to pray to the true god of weather Mother Nature.

      I find it amazing how Christians fall all over themselves to distance themselves from the God of the Bible. Don't blame them…their God is a mean, vindictive, petty killer.

      I hope you realize I don't believe in god at all. The argument I advance in this post are for the benefit of those who are considering leaving Christianity or who already have left.

      Bottom line…your Bible, your God, your problem.

      Interesting that in all the negative comments about my post not one Christian has challenged me on exegetical grounds. The reason is simple…the Bible says what it says.

      So…show me in the verses I quoted where I misrepresented the Christian God. From the common sense, basic understanding of the English text please do share with us all that the Bible doesn't mean what it clearly says and what it really means is that God does not control the weather. Good luck. 25 years of studying the Bible tell me you will not succeed in vindicating your God.

      If you decide to show exegetically that I am wrong you get one shot to do so. It has been a long day of reading comments from whining Christians crying that I have misrepresented their God.

      Bruce

      • Mike

        Well, I think it's safe to say that A. Lee got officially PWNED!!!!!!!

      • Anonymous

        @Bruce

        90% of people in the pews, and pastors as well, couldn't exegete a passage of scripture to save their lives, What makes you think that anyone commenting here can?

        • http://fallenfromgrace.net Bruce Gerencser

          True. I think they are upset because these verses put their God in a bad light. Rather than deal with the text they go after me. but, after they are done the text still says what it says

      • Shinbrouken

        I just love the way you challenge Christians to take their faith to the next level Bruce. :-)

    • http://fallenfromgrace.net Bruce Gerencser

      And I would add…

      You say Do you honestly think that the Bible teaches a God up in the sky just sitting around and sending a tornado here, a tsumani there, a hurricane somewhere else?

      Let's see…..a God who knows how many hairs are on our head, A God who saves people one soul at a time, a God who listens to prayers of athletes praying for a victory, a God who killed a man for touching the ark of the covenant, a God who is shown time and time again in the Christian Bible to intervene in the most petty of matters………..yes he is indeed quite willing to do what you say he doesn't.

      Amazing that I am the one defending God and the Bible even though I don't believe a word of it.

      Here is a link to some of John Piper's articles on this subject. http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-library/topic…

    • http://fallenfromgrace.net Bruce Gerencser

      Theologian John Frame writes: The biblical view of the natural world is intensely personalistic. Natural events come from God, the personal Lord…Obviously there are such things as natural forces, like gravity and electricity. Scripture indeed mentions the natural forces of the weather. But it is plain that in the view of the biblical writers any impersonal objects of forces are only secondary causes of the course of nature. Behind them, as behind the rain and the hail, behind even the apparent randomness of events, stands the personal God, who controls all things by his powerful word.

  • http://ramblingtaoist.blogspot.com/ The Rambling Taoist

    After reading JonHarker’s long, boring and inane diatribes, I can safely say that I am a “misoharker.”

    Sorry if that upsets you, Jon, but that’s the way I read it.

  • JonHarker

    Bruce, you are a misotheist, not an atheist.

    Sorry if that upsets you, but thats the way I read it.

    • http://fallenfromgrace.net Bruce Gerencser

      Jon,

      This discussion is over. I have no more time to invest in your baseless assertions. So be a good boy and go away.

      Thank you.

      Bruce.

      • Gray

        Wow! Bruce is banning people! Looks like Jon made the old guy really MAD! LOL!

        Or he touched a nerve…

        Perhaps the truth hurts?

        • http://fallenfromgrace.net Bruce Gerencser

          No one has been banned. (I have banned 2 people in three years. Pretty

          good considering how many offensive Christians have commented on this

          blog)

          Jon did not say anything I have not heard countless times over the

          past three years. Different people with different styles but the same

          old worn out arguments.

          Let's see……..I don't believe in God so what nerve would have been

          touched? My God nerve? Jon spent a whole lot of time trying to judge

          my emotional state, my motives, and he even concluded that he knew

          what I really was, even more so than I did. Such supernatural powers

          are rarely seen among men.

          Mad? Not a chance. Why would I be mad/angry at someone I don't know,

          who doesn't know me and who has no meaningful part of my life? Makes

          no sense to me but you keep believing what you want.

          It seems a whole lot of Christians need me to be

          angry/bitter/depressed for their judgmentalism to have validity.

          People will believe what they want. The good news is I know what the

          real story is.

          So…………I say also to you…..add something of value to this

          discussion or go away.

          Bruce

      • Jon

        You argue like a typical atheist Bruce. Others on this thread notice that YOU seem to use the sorts of tactics you accuse me of using. And they are right. You see me as a threat, and used the pretext of my comment to validate censorship.

        The truth is, you didn't have to talk to me anyway. You could have just left me to be taken care of by others. But, you were bothered by what I was saying. I guess familiarity breeds contempt.

        • http://fallenfromgrace.net Bruce Gerencser

          The only ones on this thread who disagree with me are those who think like you. Your others are "birds of a feather who flock together".

          You are no threat. What could you possibly be a threat to? Thousands of people read this blog so I seriously doubt one persons comments are going to be a serious threat.? Perhaps you think your comments shake my foundation or cause me to wonder about the validity of my views? As Chad Ocho Cinco says "Please child."

          Moderation has nothing to do with censorship. It has everything to do with keeping people from clogging up the comment threads with meaningless, off topic verbiage. . Engage in meaningful discussion, leave off your attempts to psychoanalyze, and leave off from the personal attacks. You refuse to accept my story, telling ,me I am not an atheist. (though today according to your comment here I am an atheist now)

          Interact with what I have written and what others say and your comments will be posted. If not, I will not approve any of your comments.

          I have no contempt for you. I don't know you and you have made no effort to get to know me. I asked you to read the My Journey section of this blog but you haven't. If you had perhaps you would get a better idea of where I am coming from.

          • Jon

            I have read it Bruce. The only difference really between you and I, or the fundies and I, is that I am not afraid to say "I don't know"

          • http://fallenfromgrace.net Bruce Gerencser

            I say I don't know quite frequently. That said, I have no reason to say I don't know about the Christian god. Since the Christian religion is a text based religion I can read the text and make the appropriate judgments. Since atheism, and I am not a strong atheist, is all about probabilities, I have concluded that it is very unlikely the Christian god exists.

            That said, i don't think you can find any place where I have written that I am sure that no god exists. I can not know that.

            Bruce

  • SMRuss

    Tragedy happens because of the fallen world we live in, not because God causes tragedy. Everyone is impacted by natural disasters, not just non-Christians.

    • http://fallenfromgrace.net Bruce Gerencser

      You presuppose we live in a fallen world. I do not.

      According to the the Bible God is the first cause of all things. If God is all-powerful he could choose to stop any natural disaster from happening. He chooses not to. Such action in the human realm would be considered criminal.

      • JonHarker

        Bruce, do you consider people who make subtel threats to be acting in a criminal manner?

  • SMRuss

    Bruce,

    I'm guessing that this post sounded a lot like a sermon you used to use in your church, only this time with condemnation rather than reverence. IMO, It was incorrect back then and it is incorrect now.

    • http://fallenfromgrace.net Bruce Gerencser

      You would be incorrect on this assumption. The Bible says what it says. It is never wrong to say what the Bible says and to come to a proper interpretive conclusion. These verses say the same thing to me both as a Christian and now as a non-Christian.

      I see no other honest conclusion concerning these, any many other, verses. God is. God does. Who are you to object.

      For the record I was an expositional preacher most of my time in the ministry.

      • Jon

        To me, the importance is in properly interpreting the original text.

        For instance, the story of Ezekial and the youths and the bear mauling could be told in a variety of different ways, depending on the translation. The bear might have scattered the boys like sheep, or injured them, or killed them and ate them. Or any combination of the three. The youths might have been 5 year olds or 30 year olds, out playing or out hunting for food. There are as many different interpretations of scripture as there are Christians. That's one of the things that fascinates me about this religion: it's deconstructed nature.

        • http://fallenfromgrace.net Bruce Gerencser

          There is no such thing as properly interpreting the original text because there is no original text. The Bible can be made to say virtually anything. The position I argue against on this blog is the typical evangelical/fundamentalist position. It is generally a position that takes the Bible literally.

    • Mike

      This topic sure has brought out many evangelical/fundamentalist Christians. Bruce quoted from their holy book and is correctly communicating what their holy book teaches. I should know, because, I, too, was an evangelical/fundy for a number of years. I think the reason so many evangelical/fundies have responded to this topic is because they know what Bruce is saying about the Bible is true, and they have to come up with some possible way of softening the blow of the reality that according to their beloved holy book, their God is a mean son of a bitch.

      • http://fallenfromgrace.net Bruce Gerencser

        When I would preach on this subject I would use the sovereignty of god as the overarching doctrinal truth. God is God and he created us. He is free to do what he wants. If the Bible is a divine book then it accurately reflects how God does what he wants. The problem is a lot of Christians are uncomfortable with how the Bible presents the God they worship.

      • Jon

        Perhaps the biggest problem some fundies have is their unwillingness to defend the less palatable portions of their scripture. Cowardice in the face of a culture that as grown increasingly hostile. But I see no need to deny a "mean" God, as you call him. As long as he is God of a consistent presuppositional basis. If God exists, and in facts kills people and sends them to hell, then he exists nonetheless. And no amount of poo-pooing a holy book will negate that fact. And if this is so, than life is still what life is. No more designed or capricious than it is as a godless random continuum of cause and effect. Tornados will still come and cute puppies will still be run over by cars. All the rest… is unknowable and thus pointless to debate.

        • Mike

          Jon, I see you are a presuppositiononalist. Am I right? You refer to others as "fundies." You sure sound like a fundie yourself. The idea that there is a God and that he kills people is your belief by faith. You have no empirical or tangible evidence to prove this. Your only "evidence" is the "the Bible says….", and that's not evidence at all. I don't see any more evidence for your God than Allah, Zeus, and other gods throughout history.

  • Anonymous

    Here's another reference: Ps. 88: 7…. " Your wrath lies heavily on me: you have overwhelmed me with all your waves." The waves are ascribed to God, just as you stated in your post. The passage doesn't say some , it specifies all of your waves. not the oceans' waves but God's waves. And those waves are his wrath.

  • http://www.roscoeland.blogspot.com Ross

    Hello. I'd like to ask a question. As an atheist, do you reject the Bible as the inspired word of God? If so, do you think it's illogical to try to argue from it?

    • http://fallenfromgrace.net Bruce Gerencser

      Yes I do not believe the Bible is the inspired word of God and no I do

      not think it is illogical to argue from it. I spent 25 years in the

      ministry and writing about the bible does not require that a person

      believe in inspiration. I treat the Bible as the fallible,

      contradictory text that it is. Above that, I write for the benefit of

      those considering leaving the Christian faith or who have already left

      the faith.

      Christian bookstore shelves are filled with biographies of people who

      give wondrous testimonies of past bad lives before they were

      converted. Since they are no longer a ____________________ should they

      be allowed to write about it? After all, it is their story. And that

      is what I do here. It is my story.

      Bruce

  • JonHarker

    Its interesting that Bruce refers to the United States as a Christian nation, attributing all kinds of crimes to it.

    But it is also interesting that Atheists are always saying the United States is NOT a Christian nation, and it never was…which I happen to agree with.

    And yet when they want to attibute crimes to Christians, the it IS a Christian natioin.

    Whatever fits the argument, I suppose.

    • http://fallenfromgrace.net Bruce Gerencser

      No, the US is a Christian nation but it is not a Christian nation. We were not founded as a Christian nation but the US is dominated, influenced, and controlled by Christianity.

      • JonHarker

        Like I said, Bruce, whatever fits the argument.

        That way you can have it both ways.

  • Jon

    I imagine God probably wonders to himself why human beings continue to stupidly build nuclear reactors and cities on sea coasts in earthquake prone zones. So, maybe he's punishing them for being so completely stupid.

    Maybe God is cleansing the gene pool. Atheists aren't adverse to eugenics. North Korea uses it to great benefit. There are no retarded children and blind people in the enlightened humanist utopia of the Juche revolution. They are mercifully killed at birth to save money for the state and relieve economic pressures.

    Mankind. His own savior.

    • http://fallenfromgrace.net Bruce Gerencser

      Yes, humans do bad things, evil things and humans bear the consequences of their actions.

      I see no evidence of the Christian God in the affairs of the human race. As such i would be a fool to wait around for god to do anything.

      Surely, you don't want to get in a pissing contest to see who has caused more suffering and death in the world, atheism or religion? ( and spare me any assertions about Hitler being an atheist)

      The United States, a Christian nation, has a bloody history littered with the bodies of those who dared get in the way of our manifest destiny or who blocked the road to our city on a hill.

      Bruce

      • Shinbrouken

        As a citizen of the country that was the United States' experiment on neo-colonialism in Southeast Asia, I find it hard to disagree with some of the things you mentioned here. :-)

        But I'd take the bloody history of the US anytime of day over the bloody history of Nazi Germany.

        Or the bloody history of Imperial Japan for that matter.

        In my honest and personal opinion, the US of A, as the world's lone superpower (at least for the time being), just needs to mature and grow some more so that it can lead the rest of the world along with it.

        All I've been seeing so far are more chapters in its bloody history.

        • JonHarker

          Of course, if not the the United States the countries you mention, Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan would probably rule the world today.

          • Roy Madewell

            Change take time… I'm afraid there's not enough time for me and my children to witness the ending of the atrocities of the basic drives that propelled humanity to where it is today. No longer are we latched onto "band leaders" that guide our local collectives of "us and them" to gain access to protein and calories for ourselves and offspring. The collective power of our "societies" has grown with our ability to effect change on both our physical world, and what we perceive as threats. Both inquisitive and threatened people set sail for new lands starting a new model of living in the world using what they knew to guide them. They knew it could be better and it was… Given 170 years they went from their ability of shooting a musket ball against a king to unleashing the power of matter and energy to exchange place without any guidance of thought or rationalizations. It was conceived in thought and shared in a more timely manner by a Jew who saw both the good and evil in a law not of man, but perhaps of God. Should a 66 year old Japanese person with radiation related challenges harbor ill will towards the Jews, the United States, or God? We all are subject to the collective thoughts and ideas of our immediate society that by nature propel us towards "more". It is the model of our way of being and we see these wars being raged in nature without a conscious thought of god or higher power. Today's world is a demonstration of our inability to forget the mind games perpetuated on our mothers and fathers to control armies in "just causes", and our talents to manipulate the thoughts and actions of those around us if perhaps by force. Eventually a pope, king, dictator, prime minister, president, or prophet becomes our leader and we are along for the journey. I'm saddened that humanity is burdened by false thoughts in an effort to understand our place in the world of past and a universe we are still discovering. Nothing as learned through religion except our human qualities of love, hate, greed, compassion, and intolerance. These are all effects seen in people regardless of a label describing their spiritual compass. I've held hands with a Muslim man wearing our country's uniform under a beige sky painted with the dust of his land while watching his little boys in innocent play. The man even paid for my haircut and allowed me to join them for a few minutes under his glowing smile. I can't help but think where his children are today and what they think of my people, one nation under God…

          • http://fallenfromgrace.net Bruce Gerencser

            Roy,

            Do you think people in the middle east see our militarism as Christian vs Muslim? In countries dominated by a particular religious sect it seems quite common to explain wars in religious terms. (as Christian zealots in our own country do)

            Bruce

          • Roy Madewell

            Indeed I do…

            How CAN'T they? It's my hope that the recent wave of change that is still taking place in the region can initiate true change in their societies, free of the tenets of past scribed in both their religion and "ours". I spent time in Saudi Arabia during the early 1980's and in the nightstand of the Dhahran Ramada Inn was an Arabic/English Qur'an which I read, just as I've read the various Bibles from cover to cover. Our collective IGNORANCE is far from a saving grace. I'll testify to all three books as containing both beauty and horror. It was actually a much better read. Was it inspired to Mohammed by the Bible's old friend Gabriel? I had already spent time in the desert and had water skied the waters of the Gulf of Arabia (Call it the Persian Gulf and you'll start a fight ;) when Ramadan began and I spent the month in observance of their practices. Just like all the other religions, people sneak off to… ;) It was an intelligent guide to life 1400 years ago to the people of the desert.

            Let's step into the shoes of muslim today…. http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/sam_richards_a_…

      • JonHarker

        One important evidence of the Christian God in the affairs of the human race is that we have not been allowed to destroy ourselves, even though we ourselves have set up a system that could destroy civlization in an afternoon of nuclear war.

        In our words, if full scale unrestrained nuclear war broke out at one o'clock this afternoon, civilization could be laid waste by 5 o'clock.

        And the earth would be poisoned for millenia and millenia.

        Men used Science to set that up.

        It isn't talked about much anymore, but is still just as possible as it has even been.

        • http://fallenfromgrace.net Bruce Gerencser

          Jon,

          All this is evidence of is that we haven't destroyed ourselves. Saying this is because of God is a faith statement.

          Bruce

          • JonHarker

            So? You operate on your own faith as well.

        • Anonymous

          Are you really that stupid? Send me the private e mail, excalvinist@gmail.com.

          @Bruce
          Sorry, for letting this get to me so bad. I am at the point to where if I was in control I would put someone like John in a Gas chamber. So, I think it's time to take a brake and enjoy this nice day.

          • http://fallenfromgrace.net Bruce Gerencser

            It's Ok. I don't want Jon to think you are angry. :) Evidently if

            you don't use your real name you should be treated with suspicion.

            Silly stuff.

            exbaptistcalvinistfundamentalistindependentpastor

          • JonHarker

            Your threat is noted.

            And Bruce, since you allow it up, you are complicit.

            But I will say, "exreformed", your quote is priceless! PRICELESS! I have known that about atheists for some time, but rarely do they admit it like you do.

          • Anonymous

            I said IF, IF, IF, IF, IF I was in control, nobody had made any threat to you. So stop blaming Bruce. I told you, I will give you my full name, my home address, and my phone number if you send me a private e-mail. Yet you won't do it, because you cannot deal with this man to man. You love the drama of having it on Bruces blog. Send me the e-mail. once again excalvinist@gmail.com

      • Jon

        Sure. I wouldn't call it a pissing contest, but I'd call it a comparison of facts. I'm ready when you are. Chairman Mao killed more people during the Great Leap Forward than the Catholic church killed in 500 years of inquisition.

        Hitler wasn't a Christian. He was a marginal pagan, a Catholic in name only and a worshiper of Richard Wagner's version of Teutonic mythology. He also like Houston Chamberlain and Friedrich Nietzsche. Mostly, Hitler worshipped himself.

        Manifest Destiny was more the invention of a wealthy few who wished to do the usual exploitation of vulnerable people groups than it was a religious thing. Manifest Destiny never stops. It's been going on since the days of Babylon.

        I thought you said the United States was not a Christian nation.

  • Jon

    All the silly cerebralizing about what God does or doesn't do, is really not the issue.

    The issue is politics and revolution.

    But anyway, given enough time, atheism and related humanist processes will continue to demonstrate that they are inadequate to build a culture or run a coherent society that is free, lawful and prosperous.

    Religion is the building block of a society, whatever the religion might be. Bad religion as cultural glue is better than no religion. Religion should NOT rule the society. It should inform it. The Constitution of the US is the most ideal model yet devised.

    Athesim on the other hand, inevitably leads to disunity, disorder and disillusionment. It inevitably leads to totalitarianism.

  • Jon

    Have you talked to any rabbis about this? Why is the title of your blog not something like "Debunking Christianity and Judaism"?

    At any rate, your premise here is rather disjointed.

    1. If you don't believe Yawheh exists, than why do you argue about weather control?
    2. If Yawheh does exist, then what's the point of worrying about how he runs the world as some sort of premise about criticism of a religion. I mean, how did the Great Spirit of the Iroquois nation run the weather? Does this make the Indians bad people?
    3. If Yawheh doesn't exist, then who is to blame for the weather? Is weather evil? Should death exist anyway? Is the universe just one big unfair conspiracy against us?
    4. How do you figure out any sort of coherent logic about weather control from a bunch of unrelated verses that reference weather? How many verses deal with eating figs or using the bathroom outdoors? Can we thus conclude some sort of overarching grand logic about figs or peeing in the front yard.

    Just some thoughts.

    • http://fallenfromgrace.net Bruce Gerencser

      I read the Bible as a Christian would read it. The text is clear, so if you don't agree your argument is with God not me. Now if you want to show that the verses mentioned don't mean what they say I am all ears. If God doesn't control the weather who does? If God is not the first cause who is?

      BTW, this blog is primarily for those thinking about leaving Christianity or those who have already left.

      Bruce

      • Jon

        How about as a Jew would read it? The Jews wrote every single verse you reference here. Why not talk to a rabbi FIRST about all these verses, so that he can enlighten you as to Jewish theological interpretations of them. Going back to the original Hebrew, rather than some dicey English translation made 3000 miles away 1000 years later. By some English king who may not have known squat about Judaism.

        But, Christians read the Bible and come out with all sorts of conclusions. I'm just asking you how this collection of random verses you post really represents anything at all coherent about God as a Weatherman. So, I'm not saying anything at all about what the verses say. I'm asking you how you arrive at any presuppositional basis for saying God killed people with the tornados.

        And then we must ask, is God ALLOWED to kill people with tornados? Is God allowed to make lions carnivorous. Is God allowed to make grass walked on by people and mowed down brutally with their lawn mowers? Why didn't God make people as photosynthesizers, so they didn't have to brutally slaughter innocent beef and chew it up with their molars?

        • http://fallenfromgrace.net Bruce Gerencser

          Why would a Jewish rabbi know any more than I do?

          You don't know if Jews wrote it not. Nobody does. (read Bart Ehrman's latest book)

          Is God sovereign? Yes

          Is God the first cause? Yes

          Is there anything God does not control? No

          Do the verses quoted say God sent or controlled the rain, thunder, lightening, flood, wind, and snow? Yes

          conclusion? God controls the weather. If he doesn't who does?

          According to you, and most Christians, God can whatever he wants. Even Paul, in Romans berated those who dare question God's plan to save some people and let other people perish and burn in he'll forever. God can do what he wants because he is the biggest, baddest, meanest deity on the playground.

          Of course I don't believe this. I am engaging you for your benefit and for the benefit of those who are leaving, or who have left, the Christian faith.

          Bruce

  • JonHarker

    Exactly. God can do what he wants, and without His actions, you wouldn't even exist.

    Don't like it?

    Tough cookies.

    • http://fallenfromgrace.net Bruce Gerencser

      So does Santa Claus except with Santa no one dies.

      You certainly are free to think ad you will about God. However, regardless of my atheism, if God does exist, and he is like he is shown in the Bible, I want nothing to do with such a God. Why would I ever want to worship a mean, violent, vindictive, petty, loving God like the Christian God? You can have your god.

      Bruce

      • Jon

        No one dies with Santa? Where do you reach this conclusion? What else has Santa told you?

        • http://fallenfromgrace.net Bruce Gerencser

          Because Santa is a fiction Just like your God. I fear your God about as much as I do Santa.

          Bruce

          • Jon

            But you say no one dies with Santa. If God exists, what does God's existence have to do with any of your criticisms about the weather? If God exists, does he have the right to do what he wants to do with what he creates.

            When you say you want to have nothing to do with such a God, well… what are you planning to do? Exempt yourself from the natural laws of the universe he created? Does gravitational force not effect you therefore? You can affect objects without exerting energy?

      • JonHarker

        The Christian God provides a means to save everyone.

        This world is not so forgiving, and ultimately does not care what happens to me.

        Your rejection of Him does not change anything, and you misrepresent Him blatantly and I think you know it, which is one reason why you are so angry.

        Your rejection is ultimately based on your refusal to accept his authority, and it is clear that you are not in fact an atheist but are rather angry at God.

        • http://fallenfromgrace.net Bruce Gerencser

          The Christian God provides a means to save some. God never intended to save everyone.

          Leave off the judging of my emotions. You only embarrass yourself by continuing to do so.if i tell you I am not angry then I am not angry.

          Same goes for me being an atheist.I am what I say I am….end of discussion. ( and will I delete any more comments that say differently)

          Christians worship many Gods, many jesus's. Who are you to say my god invention is wrong? My made up God can be found in the pages of the Bible just like yours.

      • Appalachian Agnostic

        "So does Santa Claus except with Santa no one dies. "

        Except on Futurama. :D

    • Roy Madewell

      I could debate that…

      • Anonymous

        Natural disasters are the only "evidence" that God has arms, legs, feet, and brains other than the ones humans employ to do deeds they then attribute to him.

        I decided long ago that if the God that the Bible describes lived in my neighborhood, I couldn't rear my children there. It is a matter of conscience to decide that "he can do what he wants" and to mitigate my responsibility for my survival and that of my fellow humans to simply being "his will" was a crock of the shit.

        I smash your tough cookies, JonHarker. Stop baking them. Tough cookies are for people who don't bother learning how to relate… or people who take "relating" lessons from "God".

    • Anonymous

      Natural disasters are the only "evidence" that God has arms, legs, feet, and brains other than the ones humans employ to do deeds they then attribute to him.

      I decided long ago that if the God that the Bible describes lived in my neighborhood, I couldn't rear my children there. It is only for a seared an arrogant conscience to decide that "he can do what he wants", and mitigate my responsibility for my survival and that of my fellow humans to simply being "his will". It is also a crock of shit.

      It sounds strangely like the conscience of someone who believes he will be eating a hearty marriage supper in the sky while his friends and neighbors, who were too stupid to believe the right thing, are burned up in everlasting fire. Even perhaps, someone who thinks that nothing on his current planet really matters, even life, because in the end, all that will matter is that his God was right and proved him right too.

      I smash your tough cookies, JonHarker. Stop baking them. Tough cookies are for people who don't bother learning how to relate… or people who take "relating" lessons from "God".

  • Anonymous

    In Isaiah God takes credit for the good and the bad. Most of the people who were killed here and in Japan intentionally built in harm's way. If I had a house in tornado alley half of it would be underground. The people in Japan built in tsunami alley and knew it.

    • Anonymous

      Yep, and it was all there fault, you cold hearted piece of shit! I hope your son or daughter dies in a car accident so I can blame it on you for having them.

      • Jon

        Well, what is random nature then? Cold, heartless… evil? The lion is evil because he eats gazelles. The sea anemone is vile because it captures the innocent little coral gobi and slowly converts him to organic mush, tail first.

        Why would you blame billwald for having children, if his child died in a car wreck? Why not blame random chance or the laws of physics or the other driver?

        • http://fallenfromgrace.net Bruce Gerencser

          I don't think anyone said nature is random. Science Reveals to us a good bit about nature. Certainly order, along with randomness is seen in the natural, as if there is any other, world.

          As a humanist I believe man is accountable for his actions. We bear the consequences for the choices we make but that's where it ends. Not waiting for God to fix anything. (i.e. Global climate change) just like Jesus isn't coming back on May 21 neither is God going to rescue the human race. It is up to us. We are, in effect, our own saviors.

          Bruce

          • Jon

            Saviours from what? Random bad luck?

            Nature isn't random? Okay. Under what divine timetable do tornados kill people?
            How is man accountable for his actions? To whom? In what way? According to what measure? Under what system of rewards and punishments and where?

          • http://fallenfromgrace.net Bruce Gerencser

            Jon,

            There are many stopping points between God and randomness. Science teaches us many things that allow us to understand how the universe operates. Theism demands certainty. Science speaks of probabilities.

            Humankind can and does have the ability to change the outcome of many things. Even things like Katrina and the recent Japanese disaster would have ended differently IF humans had made different choices.

            In a humanist world humans make the rules and humans decide what is proper and improper action. Unfortunately, religion dominates our legal system and as a result we have rules that, in a humanist world we would not have. When our rules are human focused we ourselves basic questions like what's best for humanity? How does this promote freedom? How does this promote fairness?

            I govern my life quite simply. Don't do things that hurt others and promote love, peace, and the NFL. :)

            Jon, simply put , in a humanist world we decide. No deity, no divine book. We, like in We the people…

            Bruce

        • Anonymous

          I answered with that because of the way he BLAMED the people who where killed in Japan on them.

      • JonHarker

        exrefromed, that sounds like a subtle version of a threat.

        Your reference to his children crossed the line, and says more about your atheism than any argument anyone could make.

        And of course you don't even give your name.

        • Anonymous

          I'll give you my name and address and phone number you retard, that wont change anything. I made a comment about his children because of the comment he made about the victims in Japan. He said it was their fault pretty much.

          Send me a private e-mail excalvinist@gmail.com. I'll give you my real name, my address and phone number too.

  • http://deconstructingmyselfdma.blogspot.com/ D'Ma

    When I logged onto facebook Thursday the first thing in my newsfeed was a friend from Alabama saying, "Praise be to God that we are safe and our house was spared". What about all those who were killed or injured? What about those whose homes were destroyed? Are we praising God for that too? Or were they just not quite as blessed? Maybe they'd done something wrong and were being punished. I hate it for all those who lived around "Jonah". They got it, too!

    • http://fallenfromgrace.net Bruce Gerencser

      Right. God saves one but not the other. Or God kills 99 but praise

      Jesus one is saved. Few seem to consider the absurdity of such

      things.Of course we are taught not to question God or his ways. His

      ways are not our ways the Bible says and I now say you are damn sure

      right about that. If I had the power to save a 100 I would.

      • JonHarker

        Bruce, if there is no God, then NOBODY is going to be saved in the long run.

        If God exists, there is a chance for all to be saved ultimately.

        Whether you accept God's authority or not, he can do as he sees fit. If you don't like it, that's too bad.

        • http://fallenfromgrace.net Bruce Gerencser

          Right, no god, no salvation.

          Even with God, only a small percentage of human beings will be saved. Most people without Jesus. According to the Bible God purposed to save SOME. He determined this before he ever created a human being. Of course you are ok with that because your god can do what he wants.

          Do you think if you keep saying to me your god is in charge that I will all of a sudden drop to my knees and confess that I am slave to your god? Not going to happen. I have come to the conclusion that your god is a fictional bring. I know you think differently and that's fine. At least you admit your God is free to kill multitudes of people, because he can. As the song goes, What a Mighty God You Serve.

          Bruce

          • JonHarker

            Bruce, who set you up as the judge that only a small percentage of human beings will be saved?

            You seem to think your rejection of God changes something, when in fact it doesn't.

            Your reference to dropping to your knees and confessing is interesting, because a day will come when EVERYONE will do exactly that.

            You don't believe God is fictional, and that is why you are so angry.

          • Mike

            Jon, if it makes you feel better to think that a judgment day is coming. then then fine. But just know that Jesus, at least according to the Gospels, and other new testament writers predicted this judgment day to happen in their lifetime, or the lifetime of their readers. About 2,000 years have gone by and we're still waiting? What's the hold up? The time limit has expired.

          • http://fallenfromgrace.net Bruce Gerencser

            Simple mathematics Jon. Most of the world has always worshiped a non-Christian deity. No Jesus, no salvation. That's unless you are a universalist but I doubt that you are.

          • Anonymous

            He used to be a Calvinist you brainless hick.

        • Anonymous

          You sound like a little five year old on the play ground. My Daddy is right, and if you don't like it too bad, na, na, na, na, as you put your finger in your ears. It's almost not even worth responding to. You talk real tough on a blog, i'll bet your a little pussy coward in real life.

          • JonHarker

            Bold words from someone who does not even give his name.

            Interesting that you, the atheist, are the only one hear making threats to people.

          • Anonymous

            Ya, try and blame it on someone because they are an atheist. Your the one that has to be held to a higher standard because you are so filled with love and joy. But even then you are still stupid. No one made a threat to you, I just said your probably a real pussy coward in real life.

      • Jon

        So you think God is unfair because he doesn't leave a cookie on your pillow every night?

        • http://twitter.com/tuibguy Mike Haubrich

          No, he doesn't think God is "unfair." He doesn't think God exists.

          • Jon

            Sure. I get that drift. But I'm asking, how does all this cerebralizing about "Brother Billy's" faith conclusions lead me to the non-existance of God? I can't figure out if he doesn't believe in God, or if he's pissed at God. It sounds like he's pissed. Pissed at the non-existant God.

            I'm pissed at the non-existant God in my closet who would repaint my house for me, if he really were really a God who helped people.

          • http://fallenfromgrace.net Bruce Gerencser

            Go to series section on the sidebar. There are 39 posts under the title My Journey. Then get back to me.

            Why would I be pissed at a non-existent deity? Now, asking if I am pissed at arrogant, closed minded, argumentative, pushy, self-righteous know-it-all Christians you might, depending on the day, get a different answer.

            There is nothing in this post that even hints at me being angry. So, put your emotion-reading crystal ball away and interact with what I wrote. Based on the texts in this post (and I could given dozens more) have I misrepresented God? Since orthodox Christianity teaches that God is sovereign over everything it is correct to assert that God is indeed the divine weatherman. It is up to you to prove differently. (and defend that God is not sovereign, not in control)

          • Jon

            But you sound pissed at some non-existant deity that you embellish with a lot of really bad characteristics. I've never met anyone so non-existant and unpleasant at the same time. I wish my mother in law were like that.

            You ask about the 99 killed versus the one saved in the context of some assumptions about unfairness. Why is this logical if you don't believe in God? God's existence is not disproven by some assumptions about the unfairness of his actions.

            God might be mean, or unfair, or capricious. He might be using the tornado for some purpose which transcends the importance of human life. God might have allowed the tornados to happen in order to vent off atmospheric energies that would later cause a hurricane that would kill 10,000 people somewhere else.

            Maybe God isn't concerned about the weather at all. Maybe he allows the weather to do whatever it wants, except for when people specifically pray to him for mercy.

            Now, you can go back and look at those verses from the Jewish religion and try to sort out what's the truth here. My wager is that you can't do it.

          • http://fallenfromgrace.net Bruce Gerencser

            No, I don't sound pissed. You think I do and since you think I do I am. To that I say…whatever.

            The deist would say God is indifferent. However, that is not your God is it?

            You still don't understand why I blog. I don't blog for people like you. If are happy with your god fine. My target audience is those who are considering leaving the Christian faith or those who have already left. This not a theological debate blog, I have indulged you longer than i usually do. No one wins in these discussions. If you want to understand where I am coming from fine. But, I am not going to convince you there is no god and rest assured you have no chance of convincing me the Christian god exists. That god has been weighed in the balances and found wanting.

            BTW…the majority of ethnic Jews are agnostics or atheists.

            Bruce

            PS. On what basis would you determine that the people currently called

            Jews are the Jews of the Bible? What proof do you have?

          • Jon

            I understand why you blog. And I'm speaking as a neutral observer with questions.

            I agree that nobody ever wins these discussions.

            I determine that Judaism is still practiced in the world today because I will accept the words of the Orthodox Jew who tells me that he observes that faith. To me an ethnic Jew who isn't religious is a non-sequitar. There's no such thing as a Jewish "race." I guess that puts me in the same boat with the Apostle Paul on that score. A Jew who is an atheist is like a Christian who is an Atheist. A non-sequitar.

          • http://fallenfromgrace.net Bruce Gerencser

            No such thing as a neutral observer. How can you understand why I blog

            or understand anything I do without taking the time to read what I

            have written? (besides this post and a couple others)

            It is non-sequitur.

            You seem willingly ignorant of the fact that the most Jewish religious

            practice, as is an increasing amount of Christian practice in this

            country, is for cultural purposes rather than spiritual purposes.

            People identify with a particular faith but they don't necessarily

            believe the doctrines of that faith. Most Jews are Jews becuase they

            were born Jews. An increasing number of Christians are Christians

            because they were born Christians. Beliefs don't matter. The reality

            of God doesn't even matter. What is important is the cultural

            connection they have with the particular religion. (as we watch first

            hand on Mother's Day, Christmas and Easter)

            I suspect we this discussion is running out of gas.

            Bruce

          • Anonymous

            Bruce, I am astounded at the time you take in responding to some of these posts. I get weary just reading the continual pounding you put up with from those who disagree with you in such a disagreeable fashion. It's remarkable to me that you just don't simply stop posting their poorly disguised & misguided attempts to prove you wrong & thus help you see that their beliefs are right. Wow! Does it ever cease? When I was still a believer, I got so weary hearing Christians speak this way to others. It was embarrassing to witness such dissembling. Sigh…. now it is even more disturbing. Methinks they protest too much.

          • http://fallenfromgrace.net Bruce Gerencser

            Well I am getting close to my limit. I did indulge this guy a bit more than I usually do. I told my wife the other day IF I would ever reconsider Christianity what in the conduct of many of the Christians who comment here would make want to be a Christian? And you are so right, they speak this way to each other. (as I did for many years until I got tired of it and saw it as very unChristian)

          • Jon

            I am neutral because I am agnostic. I do not know and I do not profess to know. I am quite sure at this point that I never will know.

            I am not willingly ignorant of the fact you address. It is obvious to everyone that religion can be merely outward, or deeply held inwardly. Just as atheism can be sincere or merely anti-religious politics. I do agree that probably most practitioners of any religion are cultural adherents. I don't feel there is anything particularly risky in denying this fact.

            I think there is plenty of gas to be found in discussions such as this.

          • Roy Madewell

            Atmospheric "energies" being released in tornados to prevent hurricanes?

            I am rather versed in science and engineering and haven't seen this term used in my studies. I've taken several test on the subject and my job is to play in the atmosphere while keeping people safe from it's evils ;) Perhaps you had an air mass that came down from the NW that was cooler and dryer than the warmer moist air that flows from the Gulf of Mexico. These wind patterns that exist are the interactions of convective heating of the atmosphere and the rotation of the earth as result of what’s referred to as the Coriolis effect ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coriolis_effect
            ) and are part of the mechanisms that balances out the uneven thermal load of our planet (please don’t forget the ocean currents doing the same and how both they and the atmosphere are impeded by the continents along with the topography of the earth’s crust) as it orbit’s the sun. This differential heating takes place on a continuously changing basis due to the changing relationship of the angle of the earths rotational axis being tilted 23 degrees off of the plane in which the earth orbit’s the sun, known as obliquity. (This measure changes in a slow cyclic nature of about 40,000 years resulting in global temperature patterns that in conjunction with cyclical variances in solar output, result in ice ages and massive sea level changes due to water being locked in ice upon the continents also changing the amount of energy either retained or reflected back into space…) As we might observe by watching the sun rise or set on the horizon daily, our days begin to get longer and warmer in the spring bringing those air mass thunderstorms and squall lines progressively north as the summer stretches our days. A massive thunderstorm can grow in these conditions and the wind patterns present can cause a shearing effect from the upper level winds/jet stream causing the entire storm to rotate. When combined with massive updraft present in the heart of the storm cell, this spin can be magnified locally as air is sucked from the surface resulting a tornado of size and strength dependant on the conditions. How does this week’s storms weaken later hurricanes? Let’s explore and observe…

            Eventually as the days grow longer, the atmospheric effects of the deserts of Africa heating are brought out over the Atlantic ocean and travel towards the West due to the convection cells of the atmosphere interacting as they must where they travel over the warm oceans picking up massive amounts of energy as liquid water changes state into vapor. These massive warm moist air masses retain and release energy that exceed the cooling effect of simply being lifted higher in the atmosphere as the water vapor condenses back into liquid water releasing that stored energy, just as a hot air balloon does with the addition of a burner flame. These huge masses of air are hundreds of times larger than a single thunderstorm, so much so that the southern edge of the air mass is closer to the equator than the north and a torque is applied to the entire mass causing the rotation of the hurricane. A cyclone is just a hurricane with an opposite spin due to it being on the other side of the equator and a different direction of the torque applied, with the greater force occurring nearer the equator being that the ground is moving at it’s greatest speed relative to the rest of the planet. The energy released in these storms if compressed into a few milliseconds in one spot, instead of weeks and thousands of miles would exceed the grandeur of more thermonuclear weapons than you can shake a stick at

            In closing, I still don‘t recognize the simple term, atmospheric energies, nor do I see much effect or relationship of setting off a “lady finger“ on Easter Sunday when the fireworks of the Fourth of July are looming months away.

          • Jon

            Well, if "atmospheric energies" were some sort of scientific terminology, then it would be a lucky guess on my part. I am not a meteorologist. I merely was throwing out some hypothetical scenarios about why God might want to allow or influence weather in a given situation.

            I appreciated your insights into this matter. If you can think of a better way to express the hypothetical question I raised with some sort of valid premise, than please do so. My idea merely stemmed from the old adage about the ripple effect.

          • http://fallenfromgrace.net Bruce Gerencser

            Correct. But If he starts delivering me cookies I might reconsider. :)

        • http://fallenfromgrace.net Bruce Gerencser

          Ok, here is the deal. If you want to discuss these things I am game. However, acting like a troll will land you in purgatory.Interact or go away.

          Bruce

          • Jon

            I'm not a troll. I'm asking questions that are designed to challenge you in the same way you offer the challenge to others. We must be prepared to harvest in the manner in which we sow, so to speak. I'm challenging your assumptions, and I figured you'd appreciate that I used the sort of "no velvet gloves" approach that you use.

  • Shinbrouken

    As your Christian friend Bruce, please allow me to say this in defense of the God that I believe in:

    If God IS responsible for all this devastation as you put it, the next logical question I would ask is WHY.

    Why did He do it?

    Lets see, I could come up with a few reasons, like global warming due to excessive pollution, wanton destruction of forests, over-mining, contruction of too many dams that block the natural flow of water, and continued drilling for oil deeper and deeper into the earth's surface.

    All of these activities of course, are human in origin. And I think you and I will both agree that they're all BAD. And you know how the Christian God REACTS to bad things.

    Follow the evidence my friend. There's a reason why causality exists. We reap what we sow.

    Incidentally, when your government decided NOT to sign up for the Kyoto Protocol during the 90's, it said that it would find its own alternative energy sources that would reduce total US carbon emissions. Any news on those technologies?

    Because I'd REALLY be worried if they aren't being developed and implemented. If the US created enough pollution to create a hole in our ozone layer, imagine what an emerging industrial country like China, with its over one billion population, will do to our atmosphere in the coming years.

    Again, my honest, personal opinion is that we're being warned by all of these calamities. I would go further to say that it is God who is warning us. But I don't think that's the most important thing right now.

    The most important thing is whether we are willing to heed these warnings and change the way we all live.

    Or we could all just continue to turn our eyes and pretend that the reasons I cited don't exist. After all, if we can deny the existence of God, we can easily deny something so trivial as global warming right?

    • http://fallenfromgrace.net Bruce Gerencser

      I agree with your assessment of global climate change. However, the

      Bible says that God is the first cause of all things. He doesn't react

      to bad things he causes bad things. (for all the myriad motives and

      reasons Christians use to justify God's bad behavior)

      Now, since I am not a Christian I don't believe there is any sky god

      ordering the weather. We bear the responsibility and consequences for

      the things caused by human action. The rest? Shit happens.

      Bruce

      • Shinbrouken

        I like where you're headed here Bruce.

        I think part of the reason why Christianity (or any form of theism for that matter) is so unpalatable to some is because these theists use their god as an excuse NOT to do anything about what's happening in the world.

        As Chairman Mao once said, religion is nothing more than an opiate for the masses. Its just something for them to feel good about themselves despite all the "shit" that goes down in their lives.

        In my opinion, no amount of praying and petition to a god is going to change something that's so obviously within the scope of our power to change.

        Change is going to be difficult however, if we don't have something better to strive for. To hope for.

        If all we are destined for in this life is an inevitable descent into oblivion, then all we're going to end up with is a world controlled by a bunch of powerful people drinking and eating to their hearts content.

        Assuming they don't blow each other up first (and the whole world along with them).

    • Anonymous

      Nothing more than a typical wannabe apologetic offered here that no one has not heard before. You Christians are constantly trying to get "your"god off the hook.

      Yep, God's tryin ta wurn us broder Bruce. What about all the natural disasters that happen around the world that have NOTHING to do with humans causing them as you state. What about the Earthquake in the Bay area during the 89 world series? Are you seriously going to suggest that humans are responsible for that one too?

      We have earthquakes because of plate tecthonics, that CANNOT BE controlled.

      So, as you state in your first line "Allow me to say this in the defense of the God I believe in". That is the smartest thing you have said and you are right. The god that YOU believe in, which is nothing more than a superstitious fairy-tale no different than Zeus or Thor, or Oden.

      • Shinbrouken

        I have never claimed that ALL calamities that have happened throughout human history have their root in human activities. As an individual with limited knowledge, I would be a fool to even make such a generalization. Show me a scientist who can accurately pinpoint the cause of every major catastrophe in human history and I'll show you the face of my God. :-)

        That being said however, it does not change the fact that SOME disasters ARE human in origin.

        What are we going to do about those?

        Wait, let me guess…"Shit happens?"

        • Anonymous

          Now you start back peddling when you are called out. I never accused you of saying that ALL disasters are human in origin. I simply asked about the ones that are not human in origin. And of course like a typical delusional Christian you offer NO ANSWER and shift the topic back to your insanity.

          The original o.p. was not about the disasters caused by humans, it was about God controlling the weather. Yet as almost always the Christian switches the subject to something else.

          I guess I should expect nothing less from some one who holds such false beliefs in the face of such strong contradictory evidence.

          Been swallowed by any fishes lately.

          • Shinbrouken

            Back peddling? :-)

            Sorry, but I don't see how I've backtracked on what I said earlier on this subject. Bruce's post posits that for Christians, God is to blame for weather that kills people.

            I obviously do not agree with such a generalization and thus, in the spirit of enlightened discussion, simply presented my views to the contrary.

            I'm reasonably sure that my views are grounded in verifiable facts (i.e. humans being the cause of SOME disasters, and governments denying the existence of Global Warming).

            I never asked anyone to take a leap of faith regarding my views, much less convert to Christianity.

            If I might give a bit of unsolicited advice: it would help your cause if you will not allow your personal feelings get in the way of your reasoning. I can't deny that your ad hominem approach to argument offends me, but I'm more than willing to have a decent discussion with you regarding my faith IF you are interested, AND if you will agree to let up on the Christian-bashing.

            I hope I'm not adding fuel to the fire here Bruce. If you find my comments offensive, by all means have them deleted. I will respect your decision to do so. Bit of on the edge lately because of all the packing and preparing my family and I have to do. :-P

          • http://fallenfromgrace.net Bruce Gerencser

            While we can point to humankind's hand in virtually every disaster, man is a secondary cause. The verses I mentioned seem clear….God controls the weather. He is the first cause. Nothing happens that a sovereign God does not decree or permit. God uses his creation for his purpose. This, it seems to me, is the Christian position.

            Of course, I reject this position. While some things happen beyond the control of humankind much of the devastation the world has faced can be traced back to the actions of human beings. We stupidly continue to do things that results in devastation and death.

            Bruce

          • Shinbrouken

            I understand where you're coming from Bruce. And I am in agreement with you when you conclude that God is the first cause. It was never my intent to "exonerate" God from who the Bible says He is.

            He IS God. The Aplha and the Omega. The First and the Last. Nothing ever happens in creation without Him knowing about it. I agree with you that the Bible is clear on this. I have absolutely no problem with you challenging Christians who profess to follow this God to come to terms with this aspect of God.

            However, my intent in participating in the discussion was to challenge your generalization that God ALONE is responsible for ALL disasters resulting in human misery.

            An analogy here would be to blame a gunsmith for the all the deaths caused by a murderer using a gun he had made. As the maker of the gun, the gunsmith is the first cause. And while it may certainly be true that the deaths of the victims MAY not have occurred had the gunsmith not chosen to make a gun in the first place, it does not follow that the gunsmith alone is automatically responsible for all the deaths caused by his gun.

            What about the murderer who chose to use that gun for the wrong reasons?

            While I cannot vouch for God's intent in those instances where disasters are clearly beyond human control, I am reasonably certain that WE humans ARE sometimes the author of our own misery, and therefore bear the responsibility for it. I think its safe for me to conclude that we are both in agreement in this regard. :-)

          • http://fallenfromgrace.net Bruce Gerencser

            I look at it this way. There are many people to blame along the way

            but we reach a point, a person, a deity that is the end all. We

            say….the buck stops here.

            One of the biggest gripes I have about Christians is that they are

            quite welling to give all the glory for the most petty of things they

            call good yet when bad things happen it is attributed to the devil,

            the flesh, etc. If God gets all the credit for the good that happens

            he certainly should get all the credit for the bad.

            I agree with on the "alone" aspect of disasters. But, I could say the

            same thing about good things that happen. It is never God "alone.

            Human beings do good things for others, even people who do not believe

            in God. But, I have rarely heard someone praise so–and-so for going

            good by them. No, the man upstairs gets all the credit. (and the

            underlying teaching is that man can't do good apart from God)

            Bruce

            Bruce

          • Anonymous

            Case and point
            When I was a Christian for thirteen years, and employed at a church for most of those years, I lived in poverty. I struggled to make ends meet living pay check to pay check(i paid my tithe the whole time too, what's up with that). I am sure that its the state most people in this country find them selves in.

            Anyway, I am still living in poverty, but I cannot complain. I am actually better of financially than I have been the whole time I was a Christian. I have a nice truck and a girl friend. I am almost done with my college English class and I will be starting my A.S. in a few months.

            My point
            ALL OF THESE THINGS I ACCOMPLISHED WITHOUT GOD! Yes, I did them, not the imaginary sky God.

          • http://fallenfromgrace.net Bruce Gerencser

            Correct. I love Jimmy Stewart's prayer in the movie Shenandoah:

            Lord, we cleared this land. We plowed it, sowed it, and harvest it.

            We cook the harvest. It wouldn’t be here and we wouldn’t be eating it

            if we hadn’t done it all ourselves. We worked dog-bone hard for every

            crumb and morsel, but we thank you Lord just the same for the food

            we’re about to eat, amen.”

            Pretty well sums up my sentiments on this issue. :)

          • Shinbrouken

            I understand completely where you're coming from Bruce. One of the things that I initially found unappealing about Christianity (or any such monotheistic religion) was that they seemingly do not have room for addressing individual human accomplishments.

            Everyone is required to be members of one body right? I've always had the impression before that Christians were just faceless entities whose identity was completely dependent upon their God.

            But I now know (as far as the Bible is concerned), that this is not the case.

            There IS room for individuality under the Christian God.

            Please allow me to use the following verse to illustrate my point:

            "In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you."
            (John 14:2 NIV)

            The greek translation of "rooms" means an abode or dwelling place.

            Now IF God wanted Himself to be the focus of all the attention all the time, why would there be rooms at all in His Kingdom?

            Rooms connote a place of distinction, an area set apart from the rest of the others. A PERSONAL space.

            I would imagine that a god who demands all the glory from his worshippers would not allow them to have any personal space at all. Everybody is to worship him in the same area and in exactly the same manner. No houses, no rooms, just a big huge space where all the people are gathered who worship that god for all eternity.

            I don't know about you, but that's hardly a god that I would choose to worship (not to mention the fact that he'd be boring as hell.)

            But I know that the God I worship is NOT like that. He is a God who knows me by name and knows my heart better than I do. He made me DISTINCT. He made me an INDIVIDUAL. I am precious to Him because of my UNIQUENESS. My individuality allows me to worship Him in a way that only I can. And this brings glory and honor to Him as my maker. This is true for ALL of His creations. We all sing a unique song of praise for Him.

            Don't believe the Bible says this of Him? How about the following verses:

            When Jesus saw Nathanael approaching, he said of him, "Here is a true Israelite, in whom there is nothing false." "How do you know me?" Nathanael asked. Jesus answered, "I saw you while you were still under the fig tree before Philip called you."
            (John 1:47-48 NIV)

            Not to mention the whole of Psalm 139. :-)

            What I'm trying to say is that God ACKNOWLEDGES our individual deeds, be they accomplishments or failures. And He rewards and penalizes them accordingly, IN HIS OWN TIME. This simply means that as humans, we are limited in the capacity and knowledge to know EVERYTHING there is about another human being, and therefore do not have the righteousness needed to make a justifiable assessment of that person.

            Don't we just hate it when people prejudge us? What gives ANY of us the right to judge another person? Aren't we all humans? Aren't we all subject to the same limitations inherent in humanity?

            This is the reason why I believe God is necessary for the salvation of humankind. We need a higher authority to whom we ALL can appeal to, and who will judge us by standards much higher than any other human's.

            I share your hatred for "Christians" who think they are better than others just because they call themselves Christians.

            But is that the fault of Christ? Or is it the fault of these people for misunderstanding and misrepresenting Him?

            I would imagine that Jesus would have to repeat His Seven Woes to a lot of people who thought they were serving Him by being arrogant and condescending towards non-believers.

            Bruce would probably say: "That's all well and good. But aren't you just throwing your pearls to dogs and pigs here?"

            To that I answer: I don't see how people who are genuinely interested in sharing their thoughts in an attempt to search for higher truths could be considered dogs and pigs. :-)

          • Anonymous

            You know what Shinbrouken, I'm going to take your advice here to heart. I am going to print out your comments here and carry them with me to review often. I will give you another chance for as you say "in the spirit of enlightened discussion"., I would like to talk with you about your faith. I don't think this post needs to be drawn out in an in depth-dissociation that I would like to have with you

            Here is what I offer.

            Send me a private email to excalvinist@gmail.com, Just remind me who you area(put something like "Guy from Bruces Blog" as the subject) so I can put you on my contact list. I would like to have a point by point discussion on particular topics with rebuttals also.

            I would like to keep it some what formal so I can save our dialogue with each other for future reference in a study I am conducting.

            Anyway, I would like this opportunity to learn about each other. I hope you have the time(it won't need to be fast) and willingness to dialogue with me. I promise to try at all costs to keep biases and ad homienem of it.

            It's just some times I think Christians can be so UNREASONABLE, . My hard nosed philosophy is "You can't reason with unreasonable people, so go ad hominem". I learned it from Right wing talk show host Michael Savage. Maybe it's time to dump that philosophy I would say.

            Cool, let us reason with each other, send that email to excalvinist@gmail.com

          • Shinbrouken

            Why, thank you for the invite! I'm always interested in sharing my beliefs with those who are genuinely interested and who ask nicely. :-)

            As for who I am, I don't think I've hidden who I am here in Bruce's blog. My name is Chris and I consider Bruce to be my friend (despite my being a believer and him being – in his own words – a "heretic").

            You'll have to forgive me that I'll have to defer your invite to discussion for a while. I'm finishing my diplomatic tour of duty here in Laos by the first week of June, and will be busy preparing for my trip back home to the Philippines.

            But I'll send you an email so that you can add me to your mailing list.

            In the meantime, you could start by sending me an outline of the things you want to discuss, so that I can have time to prepare my responses.

            Thank you again for your invite! I hope to have a meaningful and fruitful discussion with you! :-)

  • Anonymous

    I read in a piece by Bertrand Russell that when Benjamin Franklin invented the lightning rod, there was widespread outrage on the part of clergy in both England and America that Franklin would seek to thwart the will of God, who used lightning punitively. One Boston clergyman insisted that earthquakes which occurred about this time in Massachusetts were the direct response of the Deity towards Franklin's impious act, with stronger quakes in Boston than elsewhere because more people there had adopted lightning rods. Now we may laugh at this, but it's a classic example of the ways that religion interferes with science and the good of humanity, which continues FIERCELY to this day in all spheres of human enterprise. One might ask why more clergy are not speaking out against meteorology, in the same way they do against evolution. But that require an intellectual rigor that is utterly alien to Christian pronouncements on social and natural phenomena.

    • http://fallenfromgrace.net Bruce Gerencser

      Thanks for sharing this. Interesting story.

      Bruce

  • http://ramblingtaoist.blogspot.com/ The Rambling Taoist

    Saying God is responsible for this or that — good OR bad — is just a highfalutin way of saying, "Shit happens! Deal with it!"

    • http://fallenfromgrace.net Bruce Gerencser

      And that is the bottom line for me. We should fix what we broke IF we

      can. The rest? It is what it is and we deal with it the best we can.

      Bruce

  • ThinkTank

    God is good all the time.
    Except when he isn't.

  • http://angiecox.net Angie

    My sentiments as well. I wrote something along these lines yesterday, although not nearly as thorough. Christians simply can't have it both ways. Either it is God, or it isn't. Either Katrina was God and so was this week's tornado alley, or neither were God.

    • http://fallenfromgrace.net Bruce Gerencser

      Correct. Can't pick and choose here. I have no problem with God

      getting all the glory for the good things as long as God gets credit

      for all the other stuff too. Doesn't seem to work that way. God gets

      all the glory when good things happen but when bad things happen it is

      our fault, the devil, etc. God is let off the hook.

      Bruce

      • Anonymous

        "It's an ill wind that blows no good." The elect go to meet Jesus and the rest go to be with their friends.

        • Mike

          Bill, what a typical, cold-hearted, and calvinist response! I can't say it's unbiblical though. It's just one of many reasons why I reject the Bible as a 100% moral and divine book.

  • Steve

    Yeah, I agree Bruce 'ol buddy. Here's my problem: I'm gettin' a little sick and tired of Christians saying how "good he is". Ok, fine. If he's good, why does he terrorize the WORLD'S population with his weather??

    Oh wait, maybe he's not good? Maybe he's really a DOUCHEBAG!!

    I think greater still is the likelihood that he doesn't exist. I agree with Bill Maher, "If God IS real, he's an asshole!" Touche, Bill!

    Lol!!

    • Anonymous

      That's cool, I just watched Bill's latest show today, plus, I am going to see him live this summer.